GFCI problems - Lights, Lights, Lights! Read Only. No more posting. - PlanetChristmas! Forums. Read Only. We've moved to http://talk.planetchristmas.com - The Forums of PlanetChristmas have moved to http://talk.PlanetChristmas.com
Last night, we had freezing rain. Well-the rain tripped half the GFI's out. Since then-the rain is frozen in the plugs. I have a panel box in my garage with 8 breakers on it. About 1 foot anway is all the outlets for each breaker. I need to get the show back up but do not wont to risk anything. I am thinking of removing the GFI outlets and letting the breakers do the tripping if there is a short. What do you think.
Can I remove the GFI outlets and run off the outlets straight to the breaker??
I think that would probably be a bad idea. Most of the GFI's probably tripped because the ice was able to create conductivity between two wires. In this case one was most likely the ground but you may have HOT 2 NUETRAL shorts as well.
[Inside the GFI are two sensing coils which measure the current going out of the black wire and coming back through the white wire. If some of that current going out through the black wire doesn't come back through the white wire the circuit inside the GFI box senses that you are about to get fried (via the unbalance of the outgoing and returning current) and shuts the circuit off within about 10 milliseconds! You might just begin to feel a tingle if you are very sensitive to electricity, but it will not persist long enough to do any harm!!]
Under these conditions you might get a tingle. Under "sticking your finger in a regular light socket" you have to take 15+ amps through your body long enough actually draw enough current to "trip" the breaker. You across a load is NOT a dead short .. there is enough resistance in your body to keep you jittering for awhile before/if the breaker trips out before you explode.
What happened to people before GFI ?? They fried.
Thaw your plugs, dry your plugs, try to rain barrier your plugs (notice i did not say waterproof) and bring your show back online.
Heres what I did. The box cover on the plastic container is off for the picture, but notice all the access is toward the ground and there is a drip loop. The cover snaps on the box with a "Danger High Voltage at all Times" sign on it.
I run half of my show without gfi but it is much safer to use them when it is wet
____________________ I have been putting up lights for 12 years this year i have my biggest display to date 30,000 lights pulling 100 amps I love wire frames
Scott -- Breakers and GFCI's do totally different things (unless we're talking GFCI breakers, which combine both functions).
Breakers protect property and wiring by preventing overcurrent and short-circuit conditions. GFCI's protect lives by preventing current from leaking out of a circuit, potentially through your body and killing you.
Like Jeff said, before GFCI's, people got shocks and died.
I do understand the frustration -- we don't get a lot of rain here in December but we sometimes do and then I have GFCI issues too. I'm not too careful about protecting cord connections from laying on the ground, etc, though -- mainly because I don't have to be -- snow has never tripped a GFCI in my experience, and we don't get much rain.
This is what I did.. I replaced 4 GFI outlets with a standard outlet. I left 4 in that are still GFI and are giving me problems. It is suppose to warm up a bit this week. Hopefully this will dry the plug out then. After they air out, I will then wrap them and replace the GFI outlets back. As long as I do not touch anything, everything should be ok????
The GFI’s are tripping because there is current passing through the Ground wire. There should never be any current in this wire. This could be leakage to physical ground also which mean there could be live voltage somewhere in the grass and a person could shorten the path (through their body) just by walking in this area.[size=]
____________________ No really... Just one more light and I'll be finished....
Disclaimer: If you take any of what I say as non-constructive, it's not how I intended it.
Loftus001 wrote: As long as I do not touch anything, everything should be ok????
(This might come off as snippy-- I don't mean it too, I'm just passionate about safety...)
Sure, it will be as long as you don't touch anything. And no visitors touch anything. And no kids get excited, dart from Mom's hand, and run up to "grab the reindeer" or hold a light string near the border of the yard...
If you can guarantee all that, then you don't need GFCI's. And if you can guarantee that a circuit will never be overloaded, then you don't need circuit breakers either. And if you can guarantee there won't be a fire in the house, you don't need to keep fire extinguishers around...
There's a good reason for electrical and safety codes.
This is something that I'm concerned about, and will look into for future years. Currently I have one outdoor GFI outlet. There is one other in the house...my parent's bathroom, and they would have a cow if I left their bathroom window open to run part of the display from there! There isn't even one in our hall bathroom. The bad thing is, I run my display off of 5 different circuits. So this is a big problem, since I want to be as safe as possible (I've had my dealings with electricity gone bad, and it's not always pleasant).
If/when I finally get around to getting more power here, this will be dealt with...and that's one thing you can be absolutely sure of.
____________________ OK, take hands four from the top of the set and pass it on down to the bottom of the hall. Get ready to dance!
Remember that if you have more than one outlet on a circuit, and you run the second (and third, fourth etc) from the load side of the GFCI, only the FIRST outlet has to be a GFCI because it will protect all the rest on the SAME circuit past it. If you don't have GFCI outlets, there is a pigtail that is about 2 feet long with a built in GFCI that makes any outlet safe.
This is one example http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/11580/cid/3017
I know these work, we use them on all power tools where the extension cord isn't plugged into a GFCI outlet. Don't plug them into a GFCI outlet, kinda freaks them out and causes lots of fake trips.
Last edited on Monday December 5th, 2005 03:10 am by Mike Bluford
____________________ Have a Great 2006!
Mike, Cindy & Chris
Now that I think about it, it wouldn't be a bad idea when anyone gets a subpanel put in for outdoor Christmas lights, just to go ahead and get a combo breaker (high amp, arc fault(black to white) and GFCI(black to ground)) installed for every circuit. This would be max safety without worrying about the plugs, pigtails, etc.
____________________ Have a Great 2006!
Mike, Cindy & Chris
Mike Bluford wrote: Now that I think about it, it wouldn't be a bad idea when anyone gets a subpanel put in for outdoor Christmas lights, just to go ahead and get a combo breaker (high amp, arc fault(black to white) and GFCI(black to ground)) installed for every circuit. This would be max safety without worrying about the plugs, pigtails, etc.
The problem is economics: $5-12 for a GFCI, $20-$40+ for a GFCI breaker.
I don't have any experience with Arc-fault breakers. I understand they're now required for all new bedroom circuits in the U.S., but our home doesn't have them (yet).
If you are only running 1 or 2 outlets per breaker it is cheaper, when you get higher it isn't. In the cases here I know most are 1 per breaker so you are right. If you are using plugs in a house circuit or garage circuit, then change the breaker or the first outlet in the circuit and be protected, not every outlet.
____________________ Have a Great 2006!
Mike, Cindy & Chris
Mike Bluford wrote: If you are only running 1 or 2 outlets per breaker it is cheaper, when you get higher it isn't. In the cases here I know most are 1 per breaker so you are right. If you are using plugs in a house circuit or garage circuit, then change the breaker or the first outlet in the circuit and be protected, not every outlet.
But like you said, only the first in the chain needs to be changed. For example, our kitchen has 2 GFCI's, one for each general-purpose circuit. (2-3 additional outlets on each circuit).
Outlets tend to be wired in sequence anyway, so you just have to find the first in the sequence.
It seems spending a small amount for the protection would still be a lot cheaper then getting sued because someone’s kid got electrocuted. Even if they only got slightly shocked, it’s still your fault and the lawyers still go after you.
____________________ No really... Just one more light and I'll be finished....
Disclaimer: If you take any of what I say as non-constructive, it's not how I intended it.
ErnieHorning wrote: It seems spending a small amount for the protection would still be a lot cheaper then getting sued because someone’s kid got electrocuted. Even if they only got slightly shocked, it’s still your fault and the lawyers still go after you.
Ernie,
Not sure if that was directed at me or not.
I'm trying to advocate the protection. But it doesn't matter how you get it -- GFCI outlets and breakers are equally effective.
Mike Bluford wrote: Now that I think about it, it wouldn't be a bad idea when anyone gets a subpanel put in for outdoor Christmas lights, just to go ahead and get a combo breaker (high amp, arc fault(black to white) and GFCI(black to ground)) installed for every circuit. This would be max safety without worrying about the plugs, pigtails, etc
thats what i did. i figured 2 gfi receptacles per 30A controller was about break even for a gfi breaker. i didint even think about the arc fault though
